I’m an Enneagram type 2 personality; the helper, the nurturer, the empath.
I’m driven to care for people—sometimes even more than myself. Which, if I don’t recognize it, can lead to some serious issues in my personal life.
My work life is no stranger to this concept, either.
I love to help others. Because of that, I have to work really hard to make sure I don’t always put individual feelings ahead of the greater good of the company.
Business still needs to be done. #werk
Liz is the Head of People at Cedar, and she’s also an Enneagram type 2.
Just like me!
Being the head of people at a startup means she’s had to draw the line between fostering company culture and just... getting back to business. It's the classic struggle between nature versus nurture.
It’s not an easy thing to do, especially for those with personality types like ours. But, for the greater good of the company, it’s integral. It just has to be done.
To hear her tips on mixing nature and nurture in business, have a listen below.
Liz Ratto: Startups grow so, so quickly. Teams kind of form and reform all the time and that can sometimes mean that roles change dramatically. Needs change dramatically. A path that somebody thought that they were on or wanted isn't materializing.
Announcer: You're listening to crafting culture, a podcast dedicated to helping CEOs, people ops and HR teams create an incredible company culture. If you're looking for inspiration, practical advice or tangible examples of what great culture looks like, then you've come to the right place. Let's get into the show.
Kate Marshall: Hey all, it's Kate here. Thank you for sticking around for another episode of the Perks Series. If you've been enjoying the series, don't forget to subscribe, like rate all that stuff you're used to hearing wherever you listen to your podcasts. Today I chat with Liz Ratto. She works at Cedar, which is a healthcare technology platform that's making healthcare easier, simpler, easy to understand. For people like me who don't really get it, we talk about being nurturing in the workplace, how that plays into turnover and when people leave. Also, how it plays into things like mental health, flexibility, work from home policies. We covered a lot of ground here. We also discovered that we are both Enneagram two. So if you're a two, this one's for you. Without further ado, let's jump in.
Liz: Hey Kate. How's it going?
Kate: It's great. How are you feeling?
Liz: Doing really well. Thank you.
Kate: Good. Well first of all, thank you so much for chatting with me today.
Kate: I'm stoked about this topic. So before we jump in, let's have you introduce yourself, tell us a little bit more about who you are, what your company does, and then we'll get started.
Liz: Cool. Awesome. Well I'm Liz Ratto. I am the head of people at Cedar. So Cedar is a health tech product, so we're aiming to just create better sort of end to end patient engagement and billing experiences for patients in the U.S. healthcare system. Obviously our healthcare system is incredibly expensive, hard to navigate. Our goal is to really just try to put patients in a place where they can feel really confident about the information they're getting about their healthcare costs. You know, create payment plans and offer them options that really work for them. And the goal is to just kind of take expenses and billing and make it as sort of easy and understandable as possible for people. Um acknowledging that sometimes when you're dealing with the healthcare system, you've got a lot of other things on your plate and it can be a tough time. So we want to make this bit of it a little bit easier.
Kate: Gosh, that is amazing. As someone who has been on my own health benefits for a minute now, I still struggle to know how to do anything and I also feel like this is such a timely, um, topic that comes up, you know, health care right now, I just listened to a podcast not too long ago about healthcare in the U.S. and God, it's just so, there's so much to it and I love that you guys are really taking this opportunity to make it easier for the people like me who don't really get it.
Liz: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's everyone, you know, we're all patients and it's nice to work on a product that I can benefit from at some point. So a little bit selfish as well, but um, yeah, it's been a ton of fun now.
Kate: I love that. And that also ties in what you guys do ties in really, really well to our topic today. So before we chatted, I was looking at your LinkedIn profile and one word stood out to me and it's nurture nurturing. Um, and obviously I think it's, I think it's pretty obvious to see the correlation between what your company does and what you do and how you approach that in a nurturing way and why you care about that. But that word really stood out to me and I wanted to talk more about that. And it's certainly something that I hold dear to my heart. You know, as a nurturing person myself, I feel like I often have to sort of choose sides when I go into work. And, and that's not even, that's just like something that comes almost societaly and like almost instinctually, um, especially as a woman. So kind of going into the topic of being nurturing at work. And I know that that's kind of a wide range of things that you can put in there. But tell me more about what that means to you.
Liz: Yeah, it's interesting. It's been sort of a slow realization for me too. Um, I started my career at least in a kind of tech doing customers support or, um, an advocacy and got into that really because it appealed to a lot of my natural sensibilities in terms of wanting to be helpful. Uh, you know, when the, like Enneagram, I'm an upper two, I'm like the consummate caretaker.
Kate: Um, no way. I love it.
Liz: Yeah. So you get where I'm coming from. It's like sometimes to a fault, you know, thinking about other people, um, sometimes over myself. And you know, it was a really cool way when I didn't really know what direction I wanted my career to go into, get into companies that were exciting and to be able to do something that I felt like really early on play to my strengths, you know? So that kind of progressed over time where I was, you know, building and leading really large customer experience organizations. And something that was really apparent to me in terms of both what gave me a lot of satisfaction and motivation in my role. And also things that I got positive feedback on was sort of the role I played in nurturing my teams and my colleagues and sort of, you know, just being that sort of force for people. And you know, I think it was sort of a natural progression for me then to get into People roles and thinking about organizational development and sort of using my empathy, my understanding of the types of feelings we all experience in a workplace and sort of helping to build organizations and design teams and design perks and benefits and all kinds of things that, that we can benefit from as human people. Um, the, you know, working in companies. So that's sort of like how I, how I got here. And I think initially, especially being in leadership positions, my sort of natural state of being extremely, you know, nurturing, being compassionate, operating quite a bit on gut and instinct about how people are gonna react and think about things. You know, it was something that in some ways it's not always celebrated as you kind of alluded to, especially in a, in a leadership function. And you know, with something that sometimes I wanted to kind of downplay. But I think at this point I've really kind of gotten comfortable that this is sort of where, where I come from in an organization and I think people benefit from it on some level. And so yeah, I've kind of just said, okay, where do I find organizations that feel like this type of leadership is, is okay and is even encouraged. And that definitely brought me to Cedar. And I think things that just stuck out in terms of seeing a mirror in kind of my process and deciding to join this team was the cofounders really talking about their team as people with full lives outside of work. And they're very deliberate intentions to build an organization that was mature that didn't reflect, you know, some of the old schools, Silicon Valley kind of stereotypes, you know, it's not a place that is, you know, where there's a lot of toxic masculinity type of behaviors. It's not a place where it's not okay to, you know, have a nine to five schedule and work really smart. So that was really something I was looking for and um, felt like I could bring a lot to an organization that was sort of already developing in that way.
Kate: Yeah, that's awesome. And I, I love that you brought up the point of the gut instinct because that is, I think that we all have, I mean obviously we all have a gut instinct, but we are almost conditioned and I think it's getting better now, but we're almost conditioned to not trust that in the workplace. You know, it's like if you can't prove this with a number, it doesn't matter as much. And I think that gut instinct and sort of building this and like manifesting this nurturing energy at work kind of go hand in hand and saying, Hey, it's okay if you don't have a qualitative or quantitative characteristic to put to this thing. If, if you really feel like this is the way that it should be, do, it should be done or it should be going, we're going to trust that. So sort of building on top of the gut instinct and trusting feeling in the workplace as being, you know, like an empathetic and compassionate and a nurturing person. How have you run into any tough spots as you've sort of like built this nurturing culture at Cedar?
Liz: Yeah, I think there's a couple of ways it can get tough of. I think the first is it's obviously a really fine line between indexing a ton on feelings and being very, very compassionate and community driven, but also recognizing that this is a company and we're all part of this unit because we have business goals and we have mission-related goals and that's going to take a lot of work and it's going to take tradeoffs, and sometimes that means that things aren't perfect and they're not all sunny and we can't make everyone feel great. You know something, I tell my teams all the time, it's like, look, we are here because we care about our teammates and supporting them and enabling them, but our main kind of metric is not happiness and that's something we have to get really comfortable with is that sometimes doing the best thing for a team and a company doing the safest thing for a team and the company is going to be the really hard thing. And coming from healthcare for a bit, this is a concept that I've been able to get really comfortable with. You know, being on the search side out surveys and things like that. You know, it's a trend in healthcare for sure. Sometimes that healthcare providers with really high patient satisfaction ratings are actually sometimes having the worst outcomes or engaging in some not great or super responsible, just kind of actions around medications and things like that. And if you try to make people happy and you just give them what they're asking for, that's not always the best approach. And I think that that's sometimes a hard thing for people like me and folks who work with me to stomach is like sometimes people are going to be unhappy. And so how do we find other ways to make sure that we're, we're creating value for them and we're focusing on the things that actually make them more empowered, more productive, able to, and that's not always kind of comfortable. So I think that's a tough thing to wrap your head around sometimes. And I think the other thing is, you know, the very kind of practical cycles that occur in a business. If people joining and people leaving and when you've built a community feeling company and one where you do deeply care about the people you're working with, it can be really hard when people leave for any reason. And I think, you know, we just had a hundred people and have had, you know, our first kind of departures and that can be really tough. And I think, um, it's honoring that, but also acknowledging that that this is a business and people, you know, join and leave for all kinds of reasons. And you know, we're gonna honor that and we're gonna make sure we maintain our mutual respect and all of the things that come with working at Cedar. But you know, it can be tough. You've, you've built a culture that is super tight knit and where the business goals are are ones that are met really collaboratively. And so I think sometimes the jarring things about coming back to the reality that this is a company, you know, those are things we have to navigate.
Kate: Yeah. And I would love to hear your thoughts. So you touched on building, you're building this really, really tight knit culture and when people leave that can be, that can be a little more hard, hard hitting when you have that very family like culture. So what are some things that you do to kind of help ease the blow a little bit when people leave?
Liz: Yeah, so we just try to be really transparent about how that happens. You know, if communication feels abrupt to a broader team, just kind of reaffirming for people that it wasn't abrupt for the person who left, either. They chose to left after choose, chose to leave after kind of a long period of consideration and discussion with their manager or we sort of usually decided that it was no longer working and that that is not an overnight thing. Those are usually kind of months of conversation and work and coaching in some cases. So just getting people comfortable with this is how we handle kind of our management philosophies, our performance and coaching philosophies and just kind of trying to let people know that we do sort of follow a standard practice and if you are getting great feedback and, and hitting your goals and um, learning and growing like you have nothing to worry about. And so just being really transparent and communicative, you know, both out the process. And then when somebody does depart, you know, obviously preserving somebody's privacy, but sharing that with the team and just not making people sort of feel like anyone has disappeared and they didn't have that information.
Um, I've been in those circumstances where everyone sort of feels like they have to compare notes about where people are going or what happened. And I think that's something that we really want to avoid. So I think that's a big part of it. I also think reflecting our overall culture in how those situations are handled and our philosophies and how they're handled. And just again, honoring people who are leaving for whatever reason, startups grow so, so quickly. Teams kind of form and reform all the time. And that can sometimes mean that roles change dramatically, needs change dramatically. A path that somebody thought that they were on or wanted isn't materializing. And we want to just as much as possible really open dialogue about, um, all of those things and what people want out of their time at Cedar, but also broadly kind of professionally and personally and just try to make sure that everyone is always on a track while they're at Cedar to kind of fulfill those goals. So just making that really apparent to the teams through their relationships with their managers and their department heads. And you know, I think just normalizing feedback, normalizing growth and change and the things that we deal with all the time in a startup environment.
Kate: Yeah. And the, I love the point that you bring up about this isn't an abrupt thing when someone leaves because transparency is absolutely key. And I think this point of, you know, relationship building between an employee and the manager, it really, it creates an environment where people can have those conversations over weeks or months at a time rather than feeling like they just have to come in and say, here's my two weeks. Yeah. So like, so I think it all kind of retroactively ties back to the relationship building, right? Right. When you start at a company, how important it is to encourage and foster that, that open communication and honesty so that when the time does come where that person is ready to move on or whatever, they can have the conversation early on and it's not, it doesn't have to be an immediate sort of abrupt thing. Yeah. And that's so important. And you also mentioned feedback a few times in, in your answer just now. So I want to talk about how you gather feedback. I know that that's a really broad thing, but how do you kind of keep a gauge on how people are feeling rather than just trusting that this is the culture that you built?
Liz: I think there are a number of ways and it's, it's too bad that sort of the constant issue that folks in people in HR functions face is like lack of data and lack at least of quantitative data. It's like really hard to get that right. And you know, what we end up doing then is having to take a lot of different approaches to gathering feedback and validating our assumptions and things like that. So certainly we do company surveys of kind of all shapes and sizes. We're at a size right now where we're doing an engagement survey. We just did our kind of first one at the end of I guess Q3 last year. We'll probably do that. Um, I'm thinking twice a year just given how fast things are changing right now. But company-wide engagement surveys are great and can be really comprehensive. We found that we got about a 70% participation rate in our last one, which was good and we got a ton of really good information. But think that that's an obvious place where we're going to really dig in this year is just bolstering participation, letting people know how we're using their feedback, getting a lot more partnership early on with the rest of the leadership and managers and potentially even other kinds of advocates within the organization to encourage people to really take that time to give us their, their comprehensive feedback. So improving participation will be a huge goal for us. But we did find out a ton of good information and it was especially useful to validate the fact that our pulse surveys, which folks get every two weeks, the data that we were getting there, it's obviously much, much shorter survey and um, you know, there's always some concern that you do a larger engagement survey and find out like, Oh my gosh, there's all this other stuff going on that I wasn't aware of. And it was really good to see that that wasn't the case, that the information we were getting every couple of weeks on our pulse survey is like really mirrored what we ended up seeing in the engagement survey in terms of what people felt was going well, what needed improving. So that was really useful just to have a gut check that like, okay, on an ongoing basis we're doing an alright job of kind of keeping a pulse in this way, you know, but it's not enough I think to just kind of do the survey and look at the results and like go into a room and do some planning. It's really important I think to engage with the results on an ongoing basis. So one thing that doing a broader engagement survey allowed us to do was to kind of bring in managers and leaders across the organization. Um, and we've been seeing a lot of new behaviors on the pulsars since that occurred where it's now not just me responding to feedback and questions that people are asking on their pulse surveys, but managers are jumping in and also responding to feedback and demonstrating to their teams that they really take that seriously and want to learn more. So I think that that's an awesome habit that we're building. I think it's also a really cool kind of org structure that we have. So in my org the executive assistants report up to me, but they obviously support other parts of the org and are super embedded in those teams and their team meetings. So they get a lot of signal about what are the things that are going really well and some of these other parts of the business, what are friction points that are arising? What are new ways that we're pivoting that my team could help get ahead of something in terms of training or team design or even seating arrangements for that matter. So you know, getting a lot of that just signal kind of functional teams, making sure that I'm super present and always accessible for folks who just want advice or to vent or who are really dealing with like a tough situation and need my, you know, either kind of direct mediation or facilitation or like a really close partnership and working through something. I think we just try to be really present and try to make investments that are smart, that are derived directly from feedback that we're getting and then to really measure the impact of those, those investments. And if we had a gut instinct that something would be the right thing and it's not, we have to be super willing obviously to take a different direction, say that something fits and then brainstorm with the support of the rest of the organization around just what would be a better or a better tactic.
Kate: Yeah, that's a really good, a really good point. And I love the sort of more actionable piece of those assistants reporting to you and having, that's kind of like one of your lifelines to, to know what's going on in the different departments. So yeah, it's kind of taking whatever resources you have and just making the most of them to be able to pay attention to all these tiny little parts of a growing company. I mean a hundred people is not, is not a tiny company. So yeah, the fact that you kind of use those resources to keep a pulse on what's going on in the different departments, I think is cool and creative. And I'm sure you're doing a great job. So kind of pivoting a little bit you, so you take these surveys and on one of our earlier calls you mentioned that flexibility was a huge thing for you guys and that's something that you like to build. So that kind of the word flexibility to me means a few different things. It means trusting your team, it means respecting your team and their time and their personal needs outside of the office. How do you take this sort of overall theme of being nurturing and being trusting in your team and translating that to flexibility? How does that translate to your benefits and perks? Yeah, just kind of walk us through flexibility for you guys and what it means to you.
Liz: Yeah, for sure. You know, so really early on in in Cedar's kind of lifetime, probably when they were just three or four people, they developed company values, which is obviously a super useful exercise and a really good kind of grounding force and north star, if you will, for the broader team on like just how we make decisions and, and navigate the organization day to day. And I think two of Cedar's values really support this notion of flexibility. One is use good judgment and that kind of gets back to sort of how we've really built a very mature kind of people first organization. But it, it pairs it with the expectation that, you know, we're definitely investing in resources that help people exercise good judgment, you know, where we don't have a lot of bottlenecks of decision makers and things like that. We really want to empower everybody to kind of be using great judgment in all of the facets of their role. And I think knowing that we do have a flexible environment in terms work from home policy, in terms of sick time and paid time off policies, the value of using good judgment is just a good anchor for us and is I think really evident if, you know, things are falling apart, they're, they're starting to be, you know, not great decisions that are being made. We do retrospectives and we see what happened and you know, it's been very rare or maybe it happened at all that, you know, something has broken down because somebody didn't exercise good judgment around their own flexibility. But I think in terms of how we build systems and process, you know, there can be some resistance to that early on in a startup. And so making sure that we're exercising good judgment and the way we sort of grow our teams and make sure that there are safeguards in place, I think is a big part of keeping autonomy and flexibility really alive. So that's kind of one, one value that I think really plays into and kind of supports the flexibility and autonomy culture. The other one is no mediocrity, so it's pretty self explanatory. I think it's just acknowledging that healthcare is really complex. There is a ton of reliance on status quo and we've got to really constantly push ourselves to a higher standard. So we think the value of no mediocrity and pairing that with using good judgment gives each of us as employees a really good sort of way to check in with ourselves on like are we fulfilling that, you know, if I am working from home, am I producing work that is, you know, above the bar. Am I using good judgment in the way I allocate my time, the time that I'm away from the office, the time that I'm with my loved ones, am I creating a good balance there? And I think just putting that in the hands of individual employees and teams to kind of set their own norms I think just helps to reinforce that. Like we are all humans organizing around a company and a vision. But you know, still having a human experience and, and wanting to really maintain our, our autonomy. So I think those are some like key organizing principles for us. And it's just my personal belief that, you know, the way work is going, you know, over the next probably five to 10 years, people want flexibility. They don't want to be at the same job forever. They don't want to be tied to a desk. Um, and I love that I can see my colleagues, you know, working from somewhere across the globe because they've taken advantage of the fact that they're trusted to do that and they have the tools that they need to use good judgment, but that they can also kind of have their cake and eat it too in terms of fulfilling their job responsibilities and then also kind of nurturing the other things in their life that they care about.
Kate: Yeah. And to my last point, or to my next question, rather, building the culture of trust and knowing that you're trusted is huge. At least for me personally when I know that I'm trusted, that creates an environment where I can really pay attention to how I'm feeling. And as someone who struggles with mental health issues from time to time, much like a lot of other people, being able to feel trusted really creates an environment for me to flourish and to thrive in my job because I know that when I need to take a day or if I need to get a change of scenery or I need to work from home because I don't want to get out of my sweat pants, I can do that. I'm trusted to do that. So on, on the sort of my last point of mental health, how do you foster an environment of and a nurturing environment around mental health and yeah, tell us more about about how you do that at work.
Liz: Yeah, I think it's super important for so, so many, many reasons and I completely agree with you that like when I'm trusted to get my work done, to show up in the way that I can show up, it makes me feel more ownership. It makes me want to do better. And it also makes me super clued into when like I can't be my best in a moment. And I just completely agree. It's, it's so, so important. And so much of mental health has been, you know, historically stigmatized or not understood. And it's really, I think the responsibility of all leaders, but particularly leaders in people roles to understand how mental health issues or conditions play out in the workplace can be exacerbated or you know, really negatively impacted in the workplace, but also how it can be supported. So I think there's such a spectrum of things that you can do and that we try to do to just encourage healthy relationships with our mental health and our needs and create awareness and just a sense of overall inclusion or, and, and just being able to honor and accommodate what people need. So I think it's everything from, you know, myself personally, I have a weekly therapy appointment and Wednesdays at 10:15 I'm super open with my team that that's where I am during that time. And so I think that helps everybody just say like, Oh, okay. It's okay to take this time off. It's okay if it needs to eat into, you know, quote unquote the workday. I think making sort of that an explicit choice on my part as a leader, you know, hopefully it helps to let other people know that it's okay to do that, to take that time to protect that time. You know, and I've been at CBRE for I think about nine months and I've only had one week where, you know, stuff was coming up at work and I was like, Oh, you know what, I, it's not gonna work for me to, to jump out to, to therapy. Right. And so I think just being open and about normalizing that is hopefully helpful. We do things, uh, you know, obviously I think flexibility in our policies help, but also, you know, we have weekly guided meditation where we have a professional kind of meditation coach comes in, leads us through a half an hour meditation and just giving people sort of the right to take that time out is helpful. We also just have things like there's a crossword puzzle that hangs out, um, you know, just in the office and it's totally normal to see people wander over to it and take that mental health break. So I think all of those things are, are super important, but I think there are also really sort of more stark or visible things, um, that help to reinforce that. So we had one of the members of our DNI group was really interested in sort of exploring this topic, um, both in terms of how work impacts our mental health, how our mental health conditions can either be supported or harmed through our experiences at work or how they can impact our performance at work.
And she decided to kind of host just like a discussion group where she led us all through a survey of sort of, you know, have we experienced any of these issues either in terms of our mental health impacting our work performance or our work environment impacting our mental health. What was that like for us? So we did a lot of kind of both reporting on, you know, our experiences and a story about them. And it was so great to sort of have the opportunity to like see how many of the survey respondents had, you know, experienced some of these things. And then to hear personal stories and have a forum for sharing them. And I think, you know, for carers or caretakers like me, it's really impactful to be able to connect with people on that level and to be vulnerable as a group, um, and to reduce stigma. And, you know, I think that was just an amazing experience for me personally. And I think hopefully really cathartic for the people who participated and just a great way to remind us that like, these things are not rare. It's not uncommon. It's not weird to me to mental health break. And so I think hopefully people got a lot out of that, both in terms of education and in just, um, you know, having a shared experience and being able to talk about what we've, what we've seen and dealt out with.
Kate: Yeah, I, gosh, I love the word storytelling. I think that that puts it in such a nice way because it's not like let's talk about mental health. It's like let's, let's just share our stories and I'm right there with you. I'm, my team knows that I love my weekly therapy appointments. I am, I'm the girl that's like, well, my therapist says, yeah, yeah. And that's that to me, like that's life and that's normal for me. And the fact that I can bring it into the office and make it normal there too is so important. And yeah, creating that, certainly not by accident, you have to create that type of environment and so, so super important. So yeah, let's keep, let's keep doing it.
Kate: Okay. So last thing, rapid fire perks. I would love to hear more about the perks that you have at Cedar. So tell us about some of your favorite perks at Cedar and if you had to choose one to have forever and ever, what would it be?
Liz: Oh man. I think I've talked a lot about the flexible work from home policy or remote work policy, but that is one that I love and that is probably the one that if I had to have just one forever, it would be that I love being able to kind of balance my work responsibilities and my life responsibilities. You know, however I choose. I think other perks that I love, we do this coffee chats kind of program where we've got a Slack channel that folks are added to and they can come and go as they please. But every couple of weeks you get paired with somebody else and you go have a coffee chat and Cedar provides little, you know, gift cards for local coffee shops around and we can use those to actually go take a walk, get out of the office and just get to know somebody. And so I love that perk and I think it does a ton to kind of both support my mental health and give me a break, but also just support getting to know my colleagues and, and sort of making sure that that's something that's really encouraged. You know, but on a day like today when it's like 34 degrees outside, I also really liked the, uh, the coffee cake. So that is, that's also a great thing that's right up my alley.
Kate: Yeah. I love, I love my, my coffee breaks. I, that's the thing that I use my Zestful card on the most. I think a few awesome shops within walking distance of my apartment. So on those days where I'm using my flex time, I usually walk down and use my entire end up using my entire balance on coffee. So I'm right there with you. And lastly, what's your ultimate dream perks? So sky's the limit. You could you, would you put puppies in the office all the time? My last interview with Katie, she said that she would bring in a manicurist, which I thought was pretty, pretty perfect. Yeah. So what would you choose if you, if you had unlimited funds and resources?
Liz: I really love like vacation funds or like travel something. Um, I have been part of organizations in the past where at least the sales teams and, and folks like that got, you know, to go on some nice trips for hitting goals and even taking like their partner or a loved one along with them. And I thought that that was so awesome and man, if I were in a position to do that as a leader at a company and just say like, Hey team, if we hit this goal, everyone is going on vacation with someone that they care about or you know, a pet or whatever sounds, sounds, most restorative. Um, I would, I would absolutely love for us to subsidize that.
Kate: Oh man. Spoken like a true Enneagram two.
Liz: Right? I know. It's like so bad.
Kate: I relate to that on another level. Awesome. Well maybe, maybe we can work someday. Liz, thank you so much for chatting about this with me. I love that we covered so many topics. I love that we're both twos. I really, I keep coming to that. I feel like, I feel like that's a really cool, yeah. Thank you. This has been awesome.
Liz: Yeah. Thank you. I totally appreciate it.
Kate: If our listeners want to stay connected to you, how can they do that?
Liz: Yeah. Um, I'm just firstname.lastname@example.org if email is there a thing? Um, otherwise, LinkedIn, I think I'm slash Liz Ratto. That's Ratt. Oh, you know, I'm on Instagram too. Same, same handle. So yeah, I would love to chat with anyone.
Kate: Perfect. Well, thank you, Liz. It’s been great.
Liz: Yeah, thanks Kate.
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